Friday, March 23, 2007
Time to Fire Danny Ainge?
Alright, let's state the obvious: Danny Ainge has not had good results so far in Boston. He wouldn't know how to make a successful trade even if the Lakers offered them Kobe Bryant for a second round pick - somehow Danny would screw it up.
First, let me start by giving you the following information that is directly from an article by Chris Sheridan, an ESPN writer.
Trades made by the Celtics and their evaluations, in the eyes of Sheridan:
Jan. 26, 2006
The deal:
Boston traded Ricky Davis, Mark Blount, Marcus Banks and Justin Reed to Minnesota for Wally Szczerbiak, Michael Olowokandi, Dwayne Jones and a future first-round pick (likely in '09 or '10).
Winner: Timberwolves. As Davis noted upon his return to Boston earlier this season, Minnesota won this trade big-time. Davis and Blount are averaging nearly 30 points between them as the Wolves' No. 2 and No. 3 scorers. Szczerbiak is out for the year with a bum ankle, and his contract is borderline untradable.
June 28, 2006
Portland traded Sebastian Telfair, Theo Ratliff and a second-round pick in 2008 to Boston for the draft rights to Randy Foye, Raef LaFrentz and Dan Dickau.
Winner: Blazers. Portland turned Foye into leading Rookie of the Year candidate Brandon Roy, while Telfair lost his starting point guard job in Boston.
June 28, 2006
Phoenix traded Brian Grant, the rights to Rajon Rondo and cash to Boston for a future first-round pick.
Winner: Celtics. The draft pick owed to the Suns was originally Cleveland's and should fall in the mid-20s. Rondo can't shoot, but he's been a better acquisition for Boston than Telfair. If the Suns had kept him, he'd be a better alternative than Marcus Banks.
June 28, 2006
Denver traded the rights to Leon Powe to Boston for a second-round pick in 2007.
Winner: Nuggets. Powe went 49th. The pick Denver will get will be in the low-30s.
October 13, 2006
Cleveland traded Luke Jackson and cash to Boston for Dwayne Jones.
Winner: None. Jackson was the Celtics' final training camp cut, while Jones hardly plays for Cleveland.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that Sheridan didn't have much trouble deciding the winner/loser of the deals made by Boston during Danny Ainge's reign of destruction. Why on earth would you trade the 7th Overall pick in Randy Foye for some moron and a guy who stinks (Telfair) and also make a trade for Rajon Rondo, who is essentially the same player as Telfair, except a better passer and smarter basketball player? Why not keep Foye or package the pick and another player to actually land a player that can help you. Don't get me wrong, I like Rondo a lot, but I think Telfair has no future in the NBA. Or, trade Foye for Roy like Portland did. Silly Danny.
Let's actually look at the "blockbuster" deal that gave Minnesota their 2nd and 3rd scorers: Blount was awful in Boston, but Davis was playing well here. Wally is only a shooter these days and isn't nearly as athletic as Ricky Davis, who by the way, was acquired in a controversial trade. With Davis, Pierce, and the guys who have emerged on the Celtics, Boston would have been a better team this year, and next year. Though, the injury to Pierce this year gives the Celtics an opportunity to go from a .500 team that will either win the Atlantic or get the 7th or 8th seed, to a contender in the east (pending the lottery).
Leon Powe? Why? The Celtics definitely would have had a better pick than Denver this year regardless of the Celtics' injuries, and probably would have had a shot at a decent 2nd round player, but Danny messed that up.
The Luke Jackson deal - who cares.
As far as the T'wolves go, I hope they suck for the next few years and end up giving Boston a top 5 pick in '09 or '10.
Danny Ainge's future, as well as Doc Rivers' future depends on that draft lottery, and whether or not Greg Oden and Kevin Durant declare for the draft.
On another, non Celtic note, what's up Kobe Bryant? Boston could have picked him in 1996, as they had a high pick that year, or even Tracy McGrady the year he came out, instead of having Antoine Walker (traded away by Ainge, traded for by Ainge, and let go by Ainge), Chauncey Billups (who was traded), or Ron Mercer (also traded). Those drafts, however, were not Danny Ainge's fault.
--Edit--
So, is it really time to fire him? Probably not, but I guarantee that if things don't start out right next year, there will be talk about the potential firing of Danny Ainge and Doc Rivers. At this point, I will say Danny Ainge has drafted well with the spots they have drafted, but the trades he has made have not panned out well so far. I think Rondo will be the starting point guard of the Celtics within a year or two, perhaps Wally will be able to contribute when he's healthy, and maybe, just maybe, Boston will land a high draft pick from the pick they are getting from Minnesota.
This was first posted in frustration of the trade evaluations posted by ESPN, as well as my own frustation with the loss Wednesday night, which I was in atendance for and I was in attendance tonight versus Dallas. Therefore, there are some possible cheap shots taken at the Celtics.
Let's just cross our fingers and hope Greg Oden or Kevin Durant is a Celtic in 2007-2008.
Also, check out why we think Kobe's excessive scoring is not good for the Lakers.
First, let me start by giving you the following information that is directly from an article by Chris Sheridan, an ESPN writer.
Trades made by the Celtics and their evaluations, in the eyes of Sheridan:
Jan. 26, 2006
The deal:
Boston traded Ricky Davis, Mark Blount, Marcus Banks and Justin Reed to Minnesota for Wally Szczerbiak, Michael Olowokandi, Dwayne Jones and a future first-round pick (likely in '09 or '10).
Winner: Timberwolves. As Davis noted upon his return to Boston earlier this season, Minnesota won this trade big-time. Davis and Blount are averaging nearly 30 points between them as the Wolves' No. 2 and No. 3 scorers. Szczerbiak is out for the year with a bum ankle, and his contract is borderline untradable.
June 28, 2006
Portland traded Sebastian Telfair, Theo Ratliff and a second-round pick in 2008 to Boston for the draft rights to Randy Foye, Raef LaFrentz and Dan Dickau.
Winner: Blazers. Portland turned Foye into leading Rookie of the Year candidate Brandon Roy, while Telfair lost his starting point guard job in Boston.
June 28, 2006
Phoenix traded Brian Grant, the rights to Rajon Rondo and cash to Boston for a future first-round pick.
Winner: Celtics. The draft pick owed to the Suns was originally Cleveland's and should fall in the mid-20s. Rondo can't shoot, but he's been a better acquisition for Boston than Telfair. If the Suns had kept him, he'd be a better alternative than Marcus Banks.
June 28, 2006
Denver traded the rights to Leon Powe to Boston for a second-round pick in 2007.
Winner: Nuggets. Powe went 49th. The pick Denver will get will be in the low-30s.
October 13, 2006
Cleveland traded Luke Jackson and cash to Boston for Dwayne Jones.
Winner: None. Jackson was the Celtics' final training camp cut, while Jones hardly plays for Cleveland.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that Sheridan didn't have much trouble deciding the winner/loser of the deals made by Boston during Danny Ainge's reign of destruction. Why on earth would you trade the 7th Overall pick in Randy Foye for some moron and a guy who stinks (Telfair) and also make a trade for Rajon Rondo, who is essentially the same player as Telfair, except a better passer and smarter basketball player? Why not keep Foye or package the pick and another player to actually land a player that can help you. Don't get me wrong, I like Rondo a lot, but I think Telfair has no future in the NBA. Or, trade Foye for Roy like Portland did. Silly Danny.
Let's actually look at the "blockbuster" deal that gave Minnesota their 2nd and 3rd scorers: Blount was awful in Boston, but Davis was playing well here. Wally is only a shooter these days and isn't nearly as athletic as Ricky Davis, who by the way, was acquired in a controversial trade. With Davis, Pierce, and the guys who have emerged on the Celtics, Boston would have been a better team this year, and next year. Though, the injury to Pierce this year gives the Celtics an opportunity to go from a .500 team that will either win the Atlantic or get the 7th or 8th seed, to a contender in the east (pending the lottery).
Leon Powe? Why? The Celtics definitely would have had a better pick than Denver this year regardless of the Celtics' injuries, and probably would have had a shot at a decent 2nd round player, but Danny messed that up.
The Luke Jackson deal - who cares.
As far as the T'wolves go, I hope they suck for the next few years and end up giving Boston a top 5 pick in '09 or '10.
Danny Ainge's future, as well as Doc Rivers' future depends on that draft lottery, and whether or not Greg Oden and Kevin Durant declare for the draft.
On another, non Celtic note, what's up Kobe Bryant? Boston could have picked him in 1996, as they had a high pick that year, or even Tracy McGrady the year he came out, instead of having Antoine Walker (traded away by Ainge, traded for by Ainge, and let go by Ainge), Chauncey Billups (who was traded), or Ron Mercer (also traded). Those drafts, however, were not Danny Ainge's fault.
--Edit--
So, is it really time to fire him? Probably not, but I guarantee that if things don't start out right next year, there will be talk about the potential firing of Danny Ainge and Doc Rivers. At this point, I will say Danny Ainge has drafted well with the spots they have drafted, but the trades he has made have not panned out well so far. I think Rondo will be the starting point guard of the Celtics within a year or two, perhaps Wally will be able to contribute when he's healthy, and maybe, just maybe, Boston will land a high draft pick from the pick they are getting from Minnesota.
This was first posted in frustration of the trade evaluations posted by ESPN, as well as my own frustation with the loss Wednesday night, which I was in atendance for and I was in attendance tonight versus Dallas. Therefore, there are some possible cheap shots taken at the Celtics.
Let's just cross our fingers and hope Greg Oden or Kevin Durant is a Celtic in 2007-2008.
Also, check out why we think Kobe's excessive scoring is not good for the Lakers.
37 Comments:
By "Darren Williams," do you mean Marcus Williams? I'm confused.
I agree with your main point, for the most part, but I think you cited the wrong evidence. None of those trades you mentioned were backbreaking deals. Even the Telfair for Foye one isn't the type of thing that will kill a team. Neither Foye nor Marcus Williams (who I'm assuming you're referring to) have proven yet that they can be solid point guard starters in this league. If anything, they're really just as good as Rondo, who the Celtics got anyway. Boston also saved cap room by getting rid of LaFrentz, which is a minor victory in its own right. Ainge should not be penalized for Portland's ability to parlay Foye into Roy, as that happened only after the Blazers got Boston's pick. Just because the Blazers did that doesn't mean the Celtics could have.
With the Minnesota blockbuster, can we honestly say either team came out ahead? While in Boston, Davis was a locker room cancer, and stories have come out indicating that his personality clashed with Paul Pierce, the face of the team. Mark Blount has been decent this year, but he's hardly been the solution to Minnesota's problems in the middle. Banks played in Minnesota for half a season, and is now sucking in Phoenix. Again, it wasn't a great trade, but it was hardly a backbreaker.
And I don't get why you think the Powe pick was bad. Powe is fourth on the team in net plus/minus despite playing only 14 percent of the minutes. His PER is also just short of the league average. It's not Danny Ainge's fault that Doc Rivers doesn't realize that Powe brings a lot more to the table than many of Boston's other rookies.
Ainge's draft record is also pretty solid, considering where he's picking. Al Jefferson was picked at #15, Delonte West at #24, and Tony Allen at #25. Ainge also grabbed Ryan Gomes and Leon Powe in the second round.
No, Ainge's problem is that he lacks a direction. He has yet to dump Pierce and start over with the kids, and he's yet to turn his youngsters into a proven superstar. Instead, he's kind of stuck in a middle ground, and the Celtics are consistently mediocre. Ainge has the type of young talent that should offer him tons of roster flexibility, but he's yet to take advantage in any way.
That's his major fault, not any one of his individual moves. Each of the individual moves he makes are insignificant, and it doesn't even matter how well he comes out in any of them. Because he has no real philosophy, he hasn't been able to even MAKE meaningful moves. That's his problem.
Powe has started several games. I think there is potential that they could have had a higher 2nd round pick and gotten someone better than Powe, who is a player that i like. Also with him though, is that his turnover ratio is high, at 16% - percentage of possesions that end in turnovers, not sure if that means when he has the ball, or when the team has the ball - because that would be 'cause of guys like Telfair. Again, the problem I have with the Powe pick is that he was drafted 49th overall, and Boston gave up what looks to be a 32nd overall pick at this point. Thats 17 players, in waht looks like a deep draft, according to the experts.
The trades made aren't backbreaking deals, and you're right on that front, though I do think there may have been other moves out there. The bottom line is they sacrificed a lot for the players they got. I like what he's done for the most far with drafting players and getting draft picks.
But in the end, who really gives a shit? This team has a good chance next year if they are able to get Oden/Durant, have a healthy Wally, and have a healthy Tony Allen (avg. 20ppg).
Losing Pierce for 24 games was a blessing for this team, not because they have a shot at a high draft pick, but because the team learned to play without him and even though they couldn't win without him, they got better (see Al Jefferson and Delonte West's post-All-Star numbers)
With Foye, I thought Boston picked him, then traded him. With Banks, I thought he sucked here, he was just a throw in.
The bigger problem is the fact that Ainge blew up the 47 win team and gave us 35 win team a year ago.
Basing Ainge's tenure on the basis of trades alone is foolish and shows a supreme lack of understanding in how to run an NBA franchise.
Plenty of GM's are good at one aspect of their jobs and not so good at others. For example, Isaiah Thomas is actually quite astute when it comes to the draft, but manages to ruin things with trades and free agent signings.
In Ainge's case, he's simply taken the idea of getting cheap, young potential players to a ridiculous extreme. He doesn't seem to understand that not only do the pieces of the team need to contribute different things to be successful, but you also have to blend young talent with useful veterans and role players. Until he does that, the C's are gonna wallow in mediocrity.
With a few key changes (including picking a direction in which to go) and some luck in the draft, the Celtics can regain some of their former status and glory. For an example of what a decent team plan can do, look no further than the turnaround Colangelo made with the Raptors. They still have a long way to go (especially defensively) but the one year turnaround is nothing short of remarkable. Ainge should try to take notes.
The reason Danny Ainge will never be a great GM is partly because of his ability to eye talent. He did make great picks with Jefferson, Greem, Perkins, West, Gnomes(sp), but he also tends to over-value his talent which prevents him from trading them for pieces that will fit to make them a title contender (i.e. Iverson). Sometimes you have to roll the dice and Danny seems to be risk-adverse to selling high. Essentially he's like the guy buying stocks in 1998 who still holds onto Pets.com, eToys, Redback, Juniper in 2001 because he thinks they'll still improve.
Ok not a big Ainge fan buts let be fair, you left out the Jiri Welch to Cleveland for a NUMBER ONE! That was "Auerbachian". The problem with him, as others have said, is he overvalues his youth. If he gets Durant or Odom, someone has got to go to get an above average veteran to join Pierce and Jefferson. Can he rescue Joe Johnson from Atlanta? or Ray Allen from Seattle? Time will tell....
There are a few fafirly startling gaps here. Let me start by saying you won't find a bigger fan of Danny's outside his own family. I loved him as a Celtic player, the perfect piece on that team. I thought he was a fantastic coach, both being willing to use young guys and doing a good job with rotations that played to strengths instead of away from weaknesses, and I believed him to be one of the best TV analysts we've ever had in the NBA, due mostly to his unflinching honesty behind the mic.
All that said, there are a few other problems, trades not withstanding. He's been lousy with free agency. He signed Blunt to that big contract that was so ungainly. Admittedly it was on a stretch near the end of a season where Blount cared, which is rare in and of itself. The Scalabrine signing was ludicrous. Scales does not possess a single NBA league average skill. He can't shoot (though he has 'range'). He's unathletic. He can't guard on the ball. He can't play weak side help D without fouling or overplayign off his man. His advantage is histle, which he's got a load of. Danny wanted a veteran glue guy, which all young teams need, and he reached for a bad player with no position who happens to be Doc Rivers man crush (perhaps because he's about the only player outside of Paul and Al who's consistent.... he's just consistently terrible).
Danny's other problem is that he has a tendency to all in love with his own success. Danny made a great pick in Al Jefferson. No one doubts it. But he fell in love with his own ability to recognize a raw HSer who had a future that he took Gerald Green. He should have taken Danny Granger, who would be a perfect, all tools 3. With Granger able to play both 3 and 4 and guarding both positions effectively, as well as being Basketball IQ ready, Pierce could spend more time at the 2 (minimizing a problem with the Celtics playing 2 small guards) and Ricky Davis could have been the stud on the 2d unit, taking most of the shots, which was ideal. BUt no.
Then Danny hit on Ryan Gomes, a 4-year starter who did nothing but produced in college and was a hard worker, but was out of position and undersized without NBA-level athleticism. Thus the Leon Powe trade. When healthy, Powe produced even better in college than Gomes, and he too was undersized for his position and worked really hard. Danny fell for his own smarts in picking Gomes and tried to do it again.
If you remember Danny as a player, it was often the same way. He'd go back to the well after a notably successful play, get bit in the ass, and then go back to being smart.
Danny is not a superstar GM, but he's also not a failure. What he needs is a coach who has the balls to yell at him when he gets egotistical. Clearly that is not Doc Rivers. Try Rick Adelman, who is proven in the regular season, and who has shown an ability to get ego and personality problems in young guys under control and in harnessing young talent.
But if Danny drafts Tyler Hansbrough (failing to learn from the Montross draft pick), it's time for us to take action against his beloved Blue Acura.
Adam, Danny Granger was taken before Gerald Green, at #17, thus making your argument one giant fallacy.
the second round pick that danny gave up for powe was the worst of 2 second rounders the celts get . . and when the celtics are good next year danny should get some credit . . but he wont if they land oden or durant
Danny is great at drafting and bad at trading, Perk, Al, Delonte, Allen, Reed, Green, Gomes, Rondo and Powe should be considered successful picks. Banks and Greene the only misses. The trades have at least saved us $ and helped us in the Oden/Durant standingd. If we get one of those guys we have a franchise player and can package Telfair-Ratliff and future picks for a solid vet. If we don't get a top 2 pick we can package the 3-5 pick w/ Telfair and Ratliff for Gasol or another very good vet. We WILL be in the playoffs next year and headed in the right direction. Don't hate on Danny.
None of you people have taken into account the SALARY CAP and how constrictive it is on NBA teams. Ainge has done a great job as the celts GM and NEEDS MORE TIME to show the fruit of his efforts. With how young guys are when they enter the NBA, i think it was genius of him to always take the best youngest talent available to him regardless of their position. Once you get 2 superstars, THEN you put pieces around them to build a winner. When Danny took over this team was going NOWHERE and getting their fast.
Jan 26, 2006 deal:
The signings of Mark Blount and Ricky Davis (with Blount making well over 10 mil per year) were some of the biggest mistakes in Celtic History. That Ainge was able to dump these guys off on the T'wolves was a minor miracle. Also, Blount is in his 30s and Ricky Davis is 28 or so so to think that these guys were going to be any part of the Celts future is laughable. Scerbiak's contract is over either after this year or next and Olowokandi's has already expired. Not to mention that Ricky Davis has been a cancer in the locker room anywhere he has gone. Sure he's scoring points in Minnesota but are they winning? Is their super-star happy? No on both accounts. Good ridance to both of those guys and if we got nothing in return i'd have been in happy - but hey, we got a first round pick from the crummy t-wolves.
Grade for Ainge: A+
June 28, 2006 deal:
Raef LaFrenz makes about 13 million per year. Can you believe that? Just being able to get rid of this guy is another minor miracle pulled off by Ainge. Dan Dickau is a good locker room guy, but a career back-up at best. As for Telfair and Foye, let us not forget that Sebastian Telfair is 20 YEARS OLD - thus younger than Foye. Sure, Foye or Roy may have been better for the Celts THIS YEAR but the potential upside for Telfair is FAR FAR superior to theirs. He has one of the fastest first steps in the NBA and has the potential to be Gary Paytonesque on defense in 4 or 5 years. btw, how good what Gary Payton at 20? How about John Stockton? How about Steve Nash? How about Kobe Bryant? To judge Sebastian Telfair at this point in his career is down-right foolish. The only question mark on this one is, why Telfair when they already had Delonte West?
Grade: B- (with the potential to be one of the greatest steals of all time if Telfair is half as good as his potential by the time he's 27)
June 28, 2006 (trade 2):
I'm unaware of Brian Grant's contract but as long as it doesnt pull down the team in 2-3 years this trade is good. To get a guy of Rajon Rando's caliber and flexibility late in the first would be a good draft day.
grade: I abstaine from grading as i dont know the amount or length of grant's contract.
The other 2 are a wash. Possible backups for other possible backups, who cares - we're not exactly 1 or 2 bench pieces from title contention.
On my final note, it is physically impossible for Danny Ainge to have build a championship contender around Paul Pierce in the last 3 years. Should he scrap together anything he can to try to slip into the bottom of the playoffs? ABSOLUTELY NOT, this is why iverson would have been a bad move. You ALWAYS build to be a champion - and champions take time. This is what Danny Ainge is doing. Gerald Green is an excellent talent, he's 19. Al Jefferson is an excellent talent, he's 20. Sebastian Telfair is an excellent talent, he's 20. I believe that Ainge's design is that in 2-3 years we will have enough salary cap space to make 1 or 2 major moves to fill in the pieces around these guys (and possibly an aging Paul Pierce) to make a team that will content for a Championship for the next 10 years after that. GOOD FOR AINGE FOR NOT LISTENING TO SHORT-SIGHTED MORONS LIKE YOU and sticking to his LONG-TERM PLAN to build a really solid ballclub. I hope that that DOES NOT change and Ainge is allowed the oppurtunity to be the celts GM for the next 5 years to see his plan to fruition.
I think Ainge is going to turn around the Celts the way that Kiki vandewigh did with the Nuggets before he was canned by short-sighted idiots such as yourself... Oh, and btw - Ainge's movings mirror Kiki's moving very closely.. Y'all will eat your words in 3 years, i promise.
Ainge had a chance to have a franchise player in Brandon Roy. But he blew it and chose to have Sebastian I suck telfair instead. Good move. You can't trade away franchise players and be considered a solid GM.
If the Celtics don't get a #1 or #2 pick in next year's draft, than they are in big trouble. And if you have to rely on that you are in big trouble anyways! This team is awful and is in the Awful East, making it even worse. This team is far, far away from being good. They should have traded for Gasol. Then if you get the 1 or 2 pick, they would be a playoff team.
Oh by the way, Danny is the one who brought Raef to Boston, he brought Davis to Boston, he's the guy to get them in the first place, and then after trading the players, the team got worse.
Yes, he does need more time to show that he has done a good job, but he has failed to bring in a solid veteran. Unless the C's get Oden or Durant, it will be a good 3-4 (maybe more) years before they are contenders. Boston does not have that 1-2 punch like many of the championship teams have had (Shaq and Kobe, Shaq and Wade, Jordan and Scottie, etc.)
Ainge's moves
1) Trading Ricky Davis and Blount. Davis played well in Boston. He was assigned to cover the other teams high scoring wing freeing Pierce up for offense. Wally never could guard anyone, he is simply a spot up set shooter. The rumor about Ricky being a "cancer", Damage control. If you remember there were implications Antoine was a poor influence on pierce the first time the Celts traded him. Pierce and Davis would work out together in the summer and still remain good friends, so much for the implications he was undermining Pierce. Blount or Candyman, most teams would take Blount. Rondo as noted has yet to prove he is an NBA point, at least Banks could shoot. The reality is the Celtics have no real plan. If Durant comes out he will play the wing, what do they do with Green, give up on him? Would Durant solve their problems at Center and point? If Oden goes to the Celts will he beable to play with Jefferson? Who will play the point? Danny has shffled a lot of papers but has only created a mess.
Reprinted from an above post:
"In Ainge's case, he's simply taken the idea of getting cheap, young potential players to a ridiculous extreme. He doesn't seem to understand that not only do the pieces of the team need to contribute different things to be successful, but you also have to blend young talent with useful veterans and role players. Until he does that, the C's are gonna wallow in mediocrity."
Can this guy write this blog from now on? He clearly understands what is wrong with this team. How about we just dump Pierce this summer for another 1st rounder? Then we can field an AAU team next year. I hear those pizza parties in the AAU are rockin'.
The Celts aren't nearly as far away as it seems. The young kids really do have a ton of talent, and by holding on to the core group of them (Al, Gerald and Rondo) you can swing the other young guys for an All Star that can compliment Pierce and take some pressure off the kids (Garnett?). Depending on where you end up in the lottery, the 4 or 5 pick is quite a bargaining chip.
I agree that Danny Ainge has done a dreadful job, but he isn't Rick Pitino- yet. He just needs to smarten up, because if next year doesn't land us a playoff spot, I have a feeling bloggers won't be the only ones talking about his firing.
Listen, maybe you aren't catching my drift here. I do believe the Celtics will win the Atlantic next year. I do think they need an additional veteran on the team who is a scorer, a guy like Kevin Garnett. In the event Boston cannot get Greg Oden, I think they should consider trading that pick and packaging another young player and an expiring contract to try and land Kevin Garnett. I believe Kevin McHale is going to resign and they are going to start over, or at least they should. So in that case I agree with the person who posted the "medicocrity" comment. That is exactly his problem.
Now, another commenter says the Celtics should have gone after Allen Iverson, well they went after him, but Ainge wasn't ready to give up Gerald Green and Al Jefferson for AI. I completely agree with that also.
Even though I think they need to make a deal for a veteran, I also understand if they are unable to do that because Al Jefferson and Gerald Green are essentially untouchable. So in that case, perhaps there is a Free Agent out there that can help this team.
I also wanted to address this, I made a comment about Powe earlier and said getting him may end up being a bad move, and some stats were thrown at me. I've watched a large amount of games this year and I have seen some good things from Leon Powe, but I have also seen that most of the time, those good things come in garbage minutes. I really don't think you can rely on stats from garbage minutes.
To the post above, I don't think Ainge will be fired based on this season. I think most people are giving him a pass on this year because of the injuries and next year will be the time for Doc Rivers and Danny Ainge to get things right put up a 45-win, division champion. At that point, the team would be back to where they were a few years ago.
Now, in regards to trading Paul Pierce. That's really a tough call, Pierce is due around 15 million next year so trading him may be tough, especially for fair value. Maybe you can get a young guy and a 1st round pick, along with the matching contracts, but that does not help this team. That sets them back even further becuase this team has TOO MUCH young talent. They need some veterans like Pierce. Maybe Wally will be healthy next year and will go back to his 15 ppg. Add in Al Jefferson, and you have 3 solid players on the roster.
Then comes the question, who is going to be left around those guys? Will Green still be here? (I think so). West? Rondo? Telfair?
Atlanta needs a true point guard, so maybe they would want to make a deal for Telfair and a 2nd round pick possibly? Not sure what you might get in return, but perhaps you can trade that player along with a guy like Gomes or even West (which I hope is not the case) with Ratliff for someone who can help the team a little bit more.
Obviously, I don't really know what Ainge is going to do because I haven't figured out his philosophy, and like another poster says, I don't think he has one yet.
In the end, Rivers and Ainge will probably be here next year and Rivers will probably get a one year contract extension. Doc Rivers is a good coach, but he hasn't had a whole lot of results after his first year here.
If they don't start out well next year, the media will definitely be callling for the firing of both Doc Rivers and Danny Ainge. Though, it may still be too early to say that should happen.
"The Detroit Pistons have acquired forward/center Rasheed Wallace from the Atlanta Hawks and guard Mike James from the Boston Celtics as part of a three-way deal that sends guards Chucky Atkins and Lindsey Hunter to Boston and guard Bobby Sura, center Zeljko Rebraca and Celtics forward Chris Mills to Atlanta"
-http://www.nba.com/pistons/news/rwallace_040219.html
"MIAMI HEAT acquires F Antoine Walker from the BOSTON CELTICS and G Jason Williams, F James Posey and G Andre Emmett from the MEMPHIS GRIZZLIES and the draft rights to C Roberto Duenas from the NEW ORLEANS HORNETS in a five-team trade that sent G-F Eddie Jones to Memphis, F Rasual Butler to New Orleans, a 2006 second-round draft pick, a conditional second-round draft pick, F Qyntel Woods and the draft rights to Albert Miralles to Boston; The UTAH JAZZ acquired C Greg Ostertag from Memphis; Boston acquired C Curtis Borchardt from Utah and G Raul Lopez from Memphis; New Orleans acquired G Kirk Snyder from Utah."
-http://www.nba.com/history/largest_trades_030819.html
Two championship teams he helped out by making absolutely irrelevant trades for the Celtics. This is why I hate him. He has screwed up this season, Red's swan song, and has a terrible team right now. He has no starting point guard, just a backup in Rondo and undersized shooting guards in West and Telfair. His bigs can look incredibly useless as Al can't play defense and Kendrick doesn't do anything particularly well.
Time to fire Danny Ainge? It's been time to fire Ainge for quite a while now. He's not on the level of King, Thomas, or McHale, but I wouldn't want Ainge anywhere near my basketball team.
By the way, congrats on the link from ESPN. :)
The ESPN link was literally the highlight of my year. I'm going to address some more of the comments in detail when I have some rest under my belt.
And I never said "Yes, Marcus Williams." I should have done this.
Congrats Ravi
Ainge will redeem himself in my eyes when he fires Doc Rivers, who is HORRIBLE. A good coach and a lottery draft pick could have this team contending almost immediately in what is a weak conference.
Ainge will redeem himself in my eyes when he fires Doc Rivers, who is HORRIBLE. A good coach and a lottery draft pick could have this team contending almost immediately in what is a weak conference.
I agree Rivers should be axed. But I don't see how getting the 1st or 2nd pick in this year's draft makes Danny Ainge a good GM. The fact that you have to rely on that says enough about the matter, in my eyes. Imagine a team with Pierce, Jefferson and Roy? That could have happened. And imagine trading Gerald Green for Pao Gasol? That is what we call a great team. That could have happened if Ainge was smarter about things.
Clearly, many of you reading this can't comprehend the part that the trades I listed were from Chris Sheridan's recent post that evaluated the last 62 deals in the NBA.
The pick given up for Leon Powe arrived in another trade. I mistakenly wrote that it would be #32.
The deal that gave up Jiri Welch for a 1st rounder is essentially "Jiri Welch for Rajon Rondo" because Boston traded that pick for #21 overall Rajon Rondo. They could have had that pick this year, but it looks like Cleveland will draft low in the 1st round, so Ainge did a good thing trading the pick for someone who has turned out to be a good player.
Everyone wants to talk about Telfair. Well, I don't think he's going to be that good anytime soon, he might be in 4 years, but by that time Paul Pierce will be at the very end of his career. So Telfair doesn't help Pierce win a championship. Paul Pierce has gone through a lot of losing, coaching changes, and very little talent around him for too long to just be traded away. He's never really complained about this situation and he's gone and given it is all every single night, even in this awful situation of having a bad team this year.
Someone wrote that the Celtics were going nowhere fast when Danny Ainge took over, well, where have they gone since? They were a playoff team and division champions when Ainge took over. They had two All-Stars in Pierce and Walker. Where are they now? They're banking the future of the franchise on some ping pong balls.
They do have some very good young talent in Gerald Green and Al Jefferson. Big Al will probably be an All Star next year and Green has progressed very well this year. Perkins has regressed this year because of his injury. Ryan Gomes has been the only consistent player on this team (4 years of college not a coincidence). Also, Delonte West has developed into a good guard. I'm going to put my bias in and say he is my favorite player on the Celtics and do not want to see him get traded.
Some other blunders the Celtics organization has made are Brian Scalabrine and Vin Baker. I'll be honest, I forget when Baker was signed, but I do know he had a four year deal and he wad paid in full for just playing one year.
Now, I also understand that many other franchises have done a lot worse for a longer period of time (see Chicago following Jordan's departure). But the problem is that this is Boston. Boston fans will not continue to watch this team if they continue losing next year. Many fans, myself included, see too much promise on this team for them to stink next year. We have other sports we can watch, (which is why the C's can go under the radar while being terrible in November, December, sometimes January, and then in April.)
I have a good feeling that it would have been Jefferson AND Green for Gasol and they also wanted this year's pick, which is completely ridiculous and I agree with not trading for Gasol. He is another guy that would end up handicapping the team because of his salary. Pierce, Gasol, and Wally would all be in double figures taking up nearly half the team's salary. Wally's contract is virtually untradeable. After this year, he has two years left on the deal and in '07-'08 he is due $12 million and in '09-'10 he is due $13 million.
I've said many times I believe Boston will win the Atlantic next year and I don't think they will be a 4 seed. I think have a shot at better things. At the end of the season I will go through the numbers I have tabulated one more time and post exactly why I think they will be good.
Another poster write about the NBA salary cap and that it is constrictive. Well, you're wright there is a cap and it is about $53 million dollars. However, it is a "soft cap," meaning you resign your own players even if it puts you over the cap. Boston is about $9 million over this number and the New York Knicks have a payroll around $120 million. So that argument about the salary cap really has no relevance here.
Some notes on Boston Celtic contracts:
Paul Pierce is signed through the 2010-2011 season and will make over $21 million in his final year.
Theo Ratliff will handicap the Celtics for one more year will $11.67 million due to him next season, he was a throw-in in a previous trade.
This year, they are still paying Vin Baker over $5 million and as I have mentioned prevoisuly, Wally is signed for the next two years for a total of $25 million.
The other contracts on the team are not significicant.
As far as Free Agents for next year, the Celtics probably won't be a factor as they already have $62 million on next year's payroll. If Szerbiak is traded it will be simply to remove the '08-'09 salary due to him from the books.
As it stands, in 2008-2009, the team will have close to a $40 million payroll, which gives them some flexibility to add some players. Only 5 Celtics are signed for 2009-2010, for a total $27 million; and for 2010-2011 there are 3 players signed, for a total of $25 million. Again, that is the year Pierce will make the most money.
Trading for a good vet may be tough for this team unless they find someone willng to take on Wally's contract or Ratliff's deal. Ratliff's contract expires after next season so it may be easier to put him as a matching contract in a trade, though getting a guy like Garnett would require trading both Wally and Ratliff, along with some young guys for Garnett and additional players. If Danny Ainge can pull off a deal for KG without giving up Jefferson or Green that would be AMAZING, but it is obviously very, very, very unlikely that a deal like that would happen.
They fail to list the 2 great trades with Cleveland (for ricky and a first for Jiri). If you look at any GM and list mostly the negative trades he'll look bad. Plus we aren't giving the 2nd rounder to Denver this year??? At least thats what NBAdraft.net and draftexpress say.
Another thing that is unfair about the article is that the Ricky/Wally trade cannot be determined yet who got the better of the deal. So what that Ricky and Blount make the Twolves a mediocre team instead of a horrible one.
They won't make the playoffs and won't get a good pick probably because of these two. Meanwhile the wolves give up yet another first rounder that who knows could be better then anyone else in this trade.
Sheridan's article lists trades that occurred after a certain date, something you have yet to grasp. He didn't forget to include them, but rather, they weren't in the time period he studied. As I've mentioned, the pick Boston received in that deal was traded to Phoenix for Rajon Rondo. If Boston had not traded for Telfair they would have Randy Foye, or perhaps Roy. Portland's GM did a good job taking something they got in a trade and making it even better for them. Danny Ainge probably could have dealt Foye for Roy, or just drafted someone better. Boston drafted Foye, then traded him. They didn't trade the pick first.
The second round pick sent to Denver came through another trade, so your sites won't list it as being from Boston. Celtics had two second round picks. Boston received Golden State's 2nd round pick via Phoenix when Boston traded Walter McCarty. Boston then traded this pick to Denver for Leon Powe. Denver then traded this pick to Chicago (along with other picks) for JR Smith.
NBAdraft.net does list this. Click on any of the picks with an asterisk next to them and all of the other trades with picks are listed there.
I have also mentioned that the pick they get from Minnesota is the key to the Wally/Davis trade.
The argument others have made about Davis being a clubhouse cancer is somewhat ridiculous because he had that reputation before he came to Boston.
I think one of the bigger mistakes made by Boston is bringing Antoine Walker back after trading him. After getting 'toine Boston won 10 straight games and made the playoffs, and let Antoine go. Had they not brought him back, they would have had a shot in the lottery (sure it would have a 1% shot at the high pick, but they still would have picked in the "non playoff team" portion of the draft, where there are (theoretically) better players available. This trade may have set Boston back a year or two.
Mini Me writes:
I agree Rivers should be axed. But I don't see how getting the 1st or 2nd pick in this year's draft makes Danny Ainge a good GM. The fact that you have to rely on that says enough about the matter, in my eyes. Imagine a team with Pierce, Jefferson and Roy? That could have happened. And imagine trading Gerald Green for Pao Gasol? That is what we call a great team. That could have happened if Ainge was smarter about things.
First off, getting one of the top picks does not make Ainge a good GM. However, his job does in fact depend on it. With one of those picks, the team is instantly better next year. Without one of those picks, Ainge will have to get creative and make a trade of some sort. It is this trade that can make or break his career, which essentially means that his job depends on the top 2 picks (if Durant and Oden enter, which will if they're smart).
To the part about Rivers:
I do not think he is horrible. He has gotten these guys to play for him when nothing matters. He has shown them that winning matters no matter what and give him 100% every single night. In this day and age when it is all about the money, not many coaches can say they got players to play hard when there is nothing at stake. Just look at Memphis, they can't even buy wins and they are a better team than Boston. They won 50 games a year ago. Doc will probably get a chance to coach the lottery pick and with that pick and a healthy team, he has to show drastic improvement to this club. He didn't sign up to teach players how to play basketball. He came in with a decent roster and won a division title, then the team was dismantled even further and then guys got hurt this year. So far this year, the Celtics has lost 188 man games to injury, and are on pace to lose over man games to injury. Last year, they lost just 171 man games to injury.
As far as Gasol is concerned, nobody got him. Memphis was clearly asking too much for him. If you look at the numbers, he and Jefferson are very close to being the same player. Jefferson is 6 years younger than Gasol and will ultimately be better than Gasol. Gerald Green is viewed as a complete stud by people around the league and giving him up is like giving up Gilbert Arenas (who by the way was drafted in the second round).
From reports I have read in the Globe, the Herald, and heard on FSN, the Grizzlies also wanted Boston's top pick this year. Don't forget that their GM, Jerry West, does a fantastic job eyeing talent and making favorable trades, so the fact that he wanted Green/Jefferson makes one think they will be good players, if not great players. I have said Jefferson will be an All Star next year, in just his 4th year in the NBA. Thus, not trading for Gasol is actually one of the smarter things Ainge has done. I probably would have said to fire him on the spot had they got given up either Green or Jefferson and this year's top pick for Gasol, who is 26 and isn't considered a player you can build around.
Rondo as noted has yet to prove he is an NBA point, at least Banks could shoot
Look at the numbers, Rondo is among rookies in many categories. You're right, he can't shoot, but he is getting better at that. He has VERY GOOD awareness on the court. He's put up double digit assists off the bench on a few occaisions.
Also, Rondo is leading Rookies in steals, is third on the Celtics in assists per game, and among rookies in this category. He doesn't score a lot, but he can when needed. He can also rebound, and grabbed 14 boards against San Antonio. Until recently, he hasn't been playing a ton of minutes. When he started in place of West, he played extremely well. He plays better than Telfair, who started over 30 games this year.
Please don't fire Danny Ainge until after this year's draft.
The Blazers might need him in order to make one more key deal.
Gerald Green is viewed as a complete stud by people around the league and giving him up is like giving up Gilbert Arenas.
Don't make me laugh that hard again for a long time, Ravi.
Rivers IS a terrible coach, to lose that many consecutive games regardless of injuries is attrocious. There were several games in which they had a chance to win and just could not close. This continues even with Pierce back. Also there have been several games (New Orleans), halves (Charlotte) and quarters (Take your pick) where it appears they are not playing hard. Rookie mistakes are being made by players that Doc has coached for 2-4 years. This reflects poorly on him.
I agree that the C's should win the Atlantic and be much more of a contender next year. Either they will be enhanced by Oden/Durant or they will be making a trade for veteran help in addition to the nice core that we already have. As bad as they have been I actually enjoy watching this team.
As far as Danny's trade prowess, there is no doubt that questionable is about the nicest way you can say it. The trade with Portland was admittedly a salary dump of 1 year of Raef's contract. Ratliff's expiring contract will be the trade chip that combined with a young player(s) will bring veteran (expensive) help. The Minnesota trade really is neither here nor there since it seems neither team has benefitted from it. Blount was a zero after getting paid and it was said that his contract was untradeable. The draft pick and shorter length of Scerbiac's contract compared to Blount's should swing this trade to Boston's favor. Unfortunately you can no longer judge NBA trades strictly on the talent being exchanged since a lot of trades are designed strictly for salary reasons. I liked every move Ainge has made so far (at the time it was made) except the Portland deal, although I understand why it was done. There is no quick fix in the NBA. Toronto's season right now is an aberration and it is not like they are on the verge of being a true title contender.
Patience people Patience. Except with Rivers get rid of him NOW.
Who is making Rookie mistakes as you say that Doc has coached for 2-4 years?
That comment about the 18 straight losses is true in some sense, but look at who they played during those games. Look at how close those games were, and as you said, they COULDN'T CLOSE, thats because they are young and didn't have the guy who has been playing the longest on the team on the floor. They were missing 3 of their top starters for large portions in that stretch. At times, they had a total of 5-8 years of experience n the floor and the average age of the players was 21 or 22, their opponents always had more experience and in one game where they were close, they had a total of 6 or 7 years on the court when their opponent had FOURTY. You tell me who is going to pull through in the end. If you go back and watch those games, many of them are close, or they are down by 20 and come back to actually make it a game. They're down early in games so starters on the other team are still playing, and then Boston mounts a comeback.
They have shot extremely low percentages during stretches and have had trouble defensively, and are only now showing progress. Apparently some of the posters don't understand that unless you're LeBron, it takes a few years for most players to develop, and that is starting to happen. Look at Delonte from his rookie year, or Jefferson from last year? What about Tony Allen's progress before his stupid injury? Did you see how well the team was playing before he went down?
No, I'm not questioning Doc's coaching, I'm questioning the decisions of those above Doc. Doc is coaching as best as he can. Until coming to Boston, he had NEVER had a losing season. NEVER. At times you can question Doc's decision to sit Green when he's shooting really well. But if you can honestly sit there and say the players have not improved under Doc Rivers, then your credibility comes into question.
Look at other teams who lose three starters and see how they do. If LA loses Kobe, Odom, and another starter for 20 games what do you think would happen to them? It's not a question of scoring, it's a change in how the best players you have get defended. (Jefferson getting triple teamed with West, Wally, and Pierce out with injuries-- and he's one of only 11 players in the NBA averaging a double double -- now tell me that isn't impressive)
I agree that it takes time to develop players to their full potential in this league, and also that several of our youngs are on the cusp. I do not want to see this team broken up without proper time to develop.
In terms of rookie mistakes made by some of our youngs, and this is speaking in generalities, sorry no specifics. Delonte for as hard as he plays is prone to some really poor decisions in terms passing on open shots, forcing some shots maybe just indecisive in genaral. Also Perk is in his 4th and continues to committ terrible fouls and then bark at the refs after every call.
Big Al had a good offensive game from day 1, though he has improved defensively.
In terms of Doc never having a losing season ( in his long and illustrious career as a coach) you are not counting his final season with Orlando.
Even if I conceded that Doc had done an okay job teaching (I don't)You can't convince me that he is the coach to take this team on a prolonged playoff run. Rick Carlisle embarrassed him. If you attempt to than your credibility should be questioned.
I'd like to see some improvement from Rivers this year with a healthy roster. Rick Carlisle has done nothing but lose big games with Indiana, he's not a players coach and now he' out of job. Jeff Van Gundy is now available and I owuldn't mind seeing him coach the Green in a year. He has the ability to put in place the defense this team needs, whil estill using the speed the team has when Rondo is in their to their advantage. Also, he'll gladly take the money Doc is making.
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